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	<title>Comments on: Perverse Argumentation</title>
	<link>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819</link>
	<description>make it happen</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-12009</link>
		<author>steve</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-12009</guid>
		<description>Its unclear what the relationship between a policy of favoring localizing legislation and local government passing bad legislation is. The most immediate response to discovering some local municipality has passed a law I disagree with is to be thankful that I don't live in that city. But this sentiment perfectly captures the spirit of why I prefer legislation to be localized because countless bad laws never affects me. 

The only possible argument one can make for moving power away from the local level is because at the level the law can't be passed. This kind of movement is intrinsically anti-libertarian if you are assuming that at the local level a functioning democracy is the stumbling block to passage of that law. If one attempts to move the law to the next level they are doing so against the wishes of the people they are attempting to affect. It's really hard to see how you can get around this problem when advocating for movement of law to the larger level than then local. One should note that the Roe vs Wade decision was most certainly an act by a federal entity to force their will on a public mostly against abortion. 

Which is why I drafted the other argument for your position. This argument is valid and actually works a criticism. The problem with it of course is that it leads to the silly outcome that we can't post about most topics. 

At the end of the day it's simply not clear how you disagree with the notion of localizing power while at the same time not force a group of people to do your will after they had determined democratically that they did not want to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its unclear what the relationship between a policy of favoring localizing legislation and local government passing bad legislation is. The most immediate response to discovering some local municipality has passed a law I disagree with is to be thankful that I don&#8217;t live in that city. But this sentiment perfectly captures the spirit of why I prefer legislation to be localized because countless bad laws never affects me. </p>
<p>The only possible argument one can make for moving power away from the local level is because at the level the law can&#8217;t be passed. This kind of movement is intrinsically anti-libertarian if you are assuming that at the local level a functioning democracy is the stumbling block to passage of that law. If one attempts to move the law to the next level they are doing so against the wishes of the people they are attempting to affect. It&#8217;s really hard to see how you can get around this problem when advocating for movement of law to the larger level than then local. One should note that the Roe vs Wade decision was most certainly an act by a federal entity to force their will on a public mostly against abortion. </p>
<p>Which is why I drafted the other argument for your position. This argument is valid and actually works a criticism. The problem with it of course is that it leads to the silly outcome that we can&#8217;t post about most topics. </p>
<p>At the end of the day it&#8217;s simply not clear how you disagree with the notion of localizing power while at the same time not force a group of people to do your will after they had determined democratically that they did not want to.</p>
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		<title>By: darwin</title>
		<link>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-11894</link>
		<author>darwin</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-11894</guid>
		<description>Steve, you seem to have a problem with assuming that every word I say in a comment is an argument against the position in the original post.  When You post that a local government has done something stupid, and I say 'hey, I thought you supported local governments', I'm not arguing against your criticism of that stupid thing that just happened... I'm arguing that this is evidence against your larger, standing position of supporting local governments.

Perhaps I'm being unclear by being snarky and sarcastic... if so, I'm in good company around here.  But very explicitly:  I usually agree that the stupid thing a local government has done is stupid.  I'm happy to hear you criticize it.  And after I agree with your criticism, I will ask: does this make you reconsider, at all, your preference for local government?  Aren't you supplying evidence against one of your own positions?  How do you reconcile this?

So far you haven't answered any of those questions, so I'll just let them be explicit here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you seem to have a problem with assuming that every word I say in a comment is an argument against the position in the original post.  When You post that a local government has done something stupid, and I say &#8216;hey, I thought you supported local governments&#8217;, I&#8217;m not arguing against your criticism of that stupid thing that just happened&#8230; I&#8217;m arguing that this is evidence against your larger, standing position of supporting local governments.</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m being unclear by being snarky and sarcastic&#8230; if so, I&#8217;m in good company around here.  But very explicitly:  I usually agree that the stupid thing a local government has done is stupid.  I&#8217;m happy to hear you criticize it.  And after I agree with your criticism, I will ask: does this make you reconsider, at all, your preference for local government?  Aren&#8217;t you supplying evidence against one of your own positions?  How do you reconcile this?</p>
<p>So far you haven&#8217;t answered any of those questions, so I&#8217;ll just let them be explicit here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-11868</link>
		<author>Dan</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://enableate.com/steve/2007/819#comment-11868</guid>
		<description>"This kind of argumentation is insensitive to being persuasive and to this end ignores the apparent unconvincing perverse outcomes."

Pot calling the kettle black?

Ultimately anything you disagree with is easy to call a perverse outcome, - I could just as easily point to components of your arguments that lead to outcomes I consider unacceptable, but at least I recognize that at the end of the day my aversion to (for example) indefinite protraction and proliferation of armed conflict is a value judgment.

Why must one have the good sense to judge overly general arguments superior?

By the way, saying that a position is 'good sense' is about as persuasive to me as the global warming advocate saying "this issue has already been brought to its conclusion; no further debate is necessary" is to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This kind of argumentation is insensitive to being persuasive and to this end ignores the apparent unconvincing perverse outcomes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Pot calling the kettle black?</p>
<p>Ultimately anything you disagree with is easy to call a perverse outcome, - I could just as easily point to components of your arguments that lead to outcomes I consider unacceptable, but at least I recognize that at the end of the day my aversion to (for example) indefinite protraction and proliferation of armed conflict is a value judgment.</p>
<p>Why must one have the good sense to judge overly general arguments superior?</p>
<p>By the way, saying that a position is &#8216;good sense&#8217; is about as persuasive to me as the global warming advocate saying &#8220;this issue has already been brought to its conclusion; no further debate is necessary&#8221; is to you.</p>
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